作者：观察员 彭祥萍

因为没有足够贝斯手使用的插线，也没有室内音乐会传统的一部分 - 站立式有线麦克风，所以Grzegorz Karnas对表演现场和内容进行了临时调整。

Because there was not enough wire for the bassist to use, and there was no traditional part of an indoor concert - a stand-up wired microphone, so Grzegorz Karnas made a temporary adjustment to the live and content.

鼓手找来一张纸，随着萨克斯的节奏慢慢撕开，随后在搬来的小圆桌上，用一支笔和塑料管拍打着节奏，像极了中国传统口技表演者的表演方式。

Drummer got a piece of paper, with the rhythm of the saxophone slowly torn. Then he moved to a small round table with a pen and plastic pipe flapping rhythm,much like the traditional Chinese ventriloquism performances.

Grzegorz Karnas侧耳倾听着贝斯手弹出的弦音，喉间发出的声音空灵悠远，与他布满胡茬的粗犷外表极不相符。片刻后，Grzegorz Karnas站起身来，声音愈渐激昂。表演至尽兴处，他拉开了蓝色运动服外套拉链，露出内里一件简单的白色T恤，踩着一双蓝色运动鞋跟着音乐节奏踏起了随意的步伐。激情过后，现场又渐渐重归平静。

Grzegorz Karnas listened to the sound of the bass'shand, and the sound of his throat was so hollow,wihchwas very different from the bearded appearance.After a moment,Grzegorz Karnas stood up and his voice became more and more passionate. He opened the blue tracksuit jacket zipper, revealed a simple white T-shirt, and stepped on a pair of blue sneakers with the music rhythm. After the passion, the scene gradually returned to calm.

看起来是毫不相干的音乐类型，朋克摇滚和爵士，但对于45岁的波兰爵士音乐家Grzegorz Karnas来说，本质是一样的。都是自我情感的表达，都是“Freestyle”，都可以融进现代波兰爵士音乐中，创作即兴音乐。

What seems to be irrelevant, punk rock and jazz,but for Grzegorz Karnas,a 45-year-old polish musician,the essence is the same.They are all expressions of self - emotion,all of which are "Freestyle",all of which can blend into modern Polish jazz music and create impromptu music.

这是11月26日“格热戈日·卡尔纳斯人声四重奏巡演亚洲”首站 - 成都站粉丝见面会现场。

This is the first stop on November 26 "Grzegorz Karnas Formula tour Asia"-Chengdu Station.

最让观众炸裂的点，是Grzegorz Karnas回答完一位观众的问题后，即兴表演了一段B-BOX。一位游走在传统与现代之间的爵士音乐艺术家也突然间接了地气。

The point that most exploded the audience was the improvisation of a B-BOX after Grzegorz Karnas answered an audience’s question.A jazz musician wanderingbetween tradition and modern suddenly took over.

作为致力于呈现波兰青年爵士乐前卫的面貌、旨在推广波兰爵士乐的音乐项目 - “爵色波兰”（Jazz Po Polsku）的“当家花旦”，接下来的大半个月，Grzegorz Karnas将带着他的乐团Grzegorz Karnas Formula（格热戈日·卡尔纳斯人声四重奏）在亚洲、马拉西亚、印度尼西亚进行巡演。这是一个跨了两个年代的乐团。其他三位成员，最年轻的一位，拿他自己的话讲，甚至可以当他儿子。

As a protagonist of “Jazz Po Polsku”, for the next half-month,Grzegorz Karnas will bring his orchestra Grzegorz Karnas Formula in Asia,Malaysia, Indonesia to promote polish jazz.This is a band that spans two generations,and the other three members of the orchestra,the youngest of them,could even be his son for age.

今天这样的情况，也并非第一次出现。Grzegorz Karnas带领的乐队和他本人一样疯狂。如他所言：“做出一点点改变，会有意想不到的事情。有风险就有乐趣。”

This is not the first time in such a situation today. The band led by Grzegorz Karnas is as crazy as he himself is. As he said, "If there is a risk, there is fun. Change something a little bit and wait for the unexpected."

事实上，全程表演中，他口中甚至没有发出一个完整的单词。Grzegorz Karnas表演完第一首曲子后，现场也鲜有观众回答得出里面的内容。

In fact,throughout the show,he did not even utter a single word. When Grzegorz Karnas performed the first song, there was little audience to answer it.

我可能听了一场“假”的音乐会。

Maybe I have heard a "fake" concert.

虽然没有听懂他唱了什么，但你却一定会被他的现场所感染。

Although i didn't understand what sang,you were bound to be infected by his scene.

而在十分钟前，这位来自波兰、风趣又疯狂的爵士音乐家还在与我们大谈爵士。从他眼中的爵士音乐谈到即兴创作，从波兰爵士的前世今生谈到了未来走向。

And ten minutes ago,the funny and crazy jazz musician from Poland was talking to us about jazz improvisation and the future from the former life of the polish jazz.

波兰爵士音乐家 Grzegorz Karnas，图片来源：Jakub Krzeszowski

Q &A

自由搭配的当代波兰爵士乐

Contemporary polish jazz with freedom

观察家：您觉得“爵色波兰”这个音乐项目选择您的原因是什么？您为什么选择爵士乐？

Grzegorz Karnas：波兰即兴音乐在整个欧洲乃至全世界都是非常特殊的。他（指“爵色波兰”项目发起人Jakub Krzeszowski）选择我代表他的项目，因为我是一个疯狂的人，我让即兴音乐成为即兴创作活生生的例子。我选择了爵士音乐，因为一个因素 - 即兴创作。它让我能够在舞台上尽可能地自由自在，我可以做我想做的任何事，没有限制，也可以说是我决定了限制。我喜欢即兴创作，从这个方面讲，我觉得也许是爵士乐选择了我。就像今天一样，我们准备好了，但是没办法弹贝斯，没有麦克风，所以我们要即兴创作，想办法演出。

Observer：Why do you think“Jazz Po Polsku”choose you? Why did you choose jazz?

Grzegorz Karnas：Polish improvised music, which is very special in whole Europe and in the whole world. He chose me to represent his project because I am a crazy guy who makes this improvised music to be a living example of what improvisation can be. I chose the jazz music because of one element - improvisation. Improvisation allows me to do as much freely as I want on stage. I can do anything. There is no limits. I decide about the limits so this is the reason why I chose jazz music. I think maybe it's the jazz music that chose me because I have a personality that likes to improvise. Like today, we prepared, we come, no way to play the bass, no microphone, so we need to improvise to find the solution how to make the presentation.

观察家：作为上世纪90年代初兴起的音乐趋势，很多人都觉得波兰当代爵士乐是对主流爵士乐的挑战。您认为波兰当代爵士乐最大的特点是什么？波兰爵士乐会保持自己的特色吗？

Grzegorz Karnas：波兰当代爵士乐最大的特点是即兴演绎与朋克摇滚的有机结合。除了与朋克摇滚结合之外，波兰爵士乐也试图结合波兰和东欧斯拉夫元素。波兰北部山区的一些民谣、舞曲甚至肖邦的玛祖卡舞曲都可以成为波兰爵士音乐家创作和改编的灵感。在今天的波兰各大城市，几乎每晚都有爵士乐演出，波兰流派的爵士乐也成为欧洲爵士乐的重要一部分。

我认为波兰音乐外在可能会改变，但它的本质永远不会变。长期的思考方式、上千年的传统，这些都是很难改变的。波兰爵士乐一直都会很棒，因为它永远会保持自己的特色。

Observer：As the music trend started in the early 1990s, many people feel that Polish contemporary jazz is a challenge to mainstream jazz.So what do you think is the biggest feature of contemporary jazz music in Poland？Will Polish jazz keep its features?

Grzegorz Karnas:The greatest feature of contemporary jazz in Poland is the combination of improvisation and punk rock.In addition to combining with punk rock, polish jazz also tries to combine the Slavic elements of Poland and Eastern European.Some folk,dance and even Chopin's in the mountains of northern Poland Mazuka Sutra can be a polish jazz musician creation and adaptation of inspiration.In today's polish cities,jazz is performed almost every night,and polish jazz is an important part of European jazz.

I think the Polish music will change on the outside,but inside never change. It's a long history of mentality.That’s the way of thinking.It’s very difficult to change. Many generations, one thousand of tradition, how to change it? The Polish jazz will be great because we will never change.

观察家：您提到当代波兰爵士乐最大的特点是可以结合朋克摇滚等多种因素，它为什么如此现代？

Grzegorz Karnas：波兰爵士乐之所以如此现代是因为波兰人的心态很特殊。波兰人喜欢质疑，如果他们看到了一件事情，他们会说：“不，我不这样做，我喜欢那样做。”或者“我喜欢这样做，我不想那样做”。波兰人很独特，他们能找到属于自己的生活方式，这也正是创作即兴音乐的完美根基，即兴音乐表达的就是你自己。这也是波兰当代爵士乐水平很高的原因，因为波兰人本身就很个人主义。

Observer:Contemporary polish jazz can be combined with rock and roll. So what is the reason for polish jazz to be so contemporary?”

Grzegorz Karnas:I think Polish jazz is so contemporary becausePolish people have the special mentality for it. Polish people always like to question things, which means if they see something,they say “No, I don’t do like this. I do like this.” or maybe “I do like this.I don’t want to do like this.”Polish people have the special characteristic for finding their own personal way through life,and that’s the perfect ground for improvised music because improvised music is all about your own ideas.So I think that’s the reason the jazz Polish contemporary music is very high level because Polish people are very individualistic. That’s the answer.

观察家：那么您最喜欢的爵士音乐是什么？

Grzegorz Karnas：我最喜欢的爵士音乐就是我现在正在做的，这是我的音乐，让我感到自由。我喜欢的音乐是充满想象力的，有着美妙的声音和优美的旋律，能展现给不同的人。我不喜欢这个乐队和另一个乐队弹奏得一样，那样就太无聊了。但是这也很私人。

Observer：What’s your favorite jazz music?

Grzegorz Karnas：My favorite jazz music is what I do because that's mine and I feel free.I like music with a lot of imagination,with nice sound,nice melodies. But it’s very personal.I like music that shows this guy and that guy. Everybody is different. I don’t like that can be one band plays like another band. That’s very boring.

这是一个跨了两个年代的乐团

图片来源：Jakub Krzeszowski

观察家：观众们都喜欢爵士乐吗？您如何让不懂波兰语的观众听懂您的音乐？

Grzegorz Karnas：我们演奏爵士音乐，希望我们的音乐能给大家带来快乐，让音乐更靠近大家，你是否喜欢爵士乐或是否懂爵士乐并不重要。举个例子，我们做音乐要用到四个乐器：萨克斯管、钢琴、贝斯和鼓，这其中并没有波兰语，所以观众不需要听懂波兰语。这就是音乐。我喜欢把我的声音当作乐器，所以很多时候我甚至不唱歌词，我只用自己声音使它听起来像乐器。这样我们成为了音乐的一部分，每个人都能听懂音乐。音乐是世界的，它不属于任何人却被所有人理解。

Observer：Do audiences all like jazz? Maybe they don’t understand your Polish language.

Grzegorz Karnas：No.The thing is we play jazz music but we want all people to listen to it.Our job is to make you feel happy about our music, to have fun, to get to you.It doesn't matter if you like jazz or if you know jazz.I give you an example. Imagine there are four instruments:saxophone, piano, bass and drums.There’s no Polish language here. What do you have to understand.That’s music, right?So I think I use my voice like an instrument.So sometimes, many times, I don’t sing any language. I don't use language. I only use the sound of the voice to make it sound like an instrument,so we become a part of music and everyone can understand music, right?Music is an international thing.Music doesn't belong to anyone but is understood by everyone.

向世界开放的波兰爵士乐

Polish jazz to the world

观察家：在冷战期间，波兰与西方文化之间存在一定的交流困难。来自西方的爵士音乐是如何在波兰扎根的呢？

Grzegorz Karnas：有很多方法。冷战期间，波兰人没有权利去英国、法国，但是音乐人有这样的权利，他们会结伴带着护照去世界各地巡演，用这种方式和朋友分享音乐。这也是与不同国家文化交流的一种方式。第二种是收听电台。有些短波电台能听到美国的广播，所以他们会收听这些电台并录音，然后写自己的音乐，学习美国的爵士乐方法。

Observer:During the Cold War,there was some difficulty in communication between Poland and western culture. How did the music from the west take root in Poland?

Grzegorz Karnas：There were many ways. There were small groups of musicians. With passport, they would travel. All the Polish people didn’t have the right to have a passport to go to France, England, but the good musicians had it so they would go and share music with friends. So that’s one way to smuggle from different countries. The second way was to listen to the radio. There’s short-wave station that could listen to the broadcast from the United States, so they would listen to these radio stations.They made recording, wrote down music and learned from American methods.

观察家：年长一辈波兰爵士音乐人的年代是摇摆（swing）最流行的年代，您如何看待两代人风格区别？

Grzegorz Karnas：现在也许是三代了。波兰爵士乐萌芽于上个世纪三十年代，真正开始发展是五十年代。我的母亲生于1949年，我生于1972年，所以我是第二代，乐队里的贝司手可以当我的儿子了，他算是第三代。三代人风格区别很大。波兰爵士乐从摇摆开始，最终是当代爵士乐，一切缘于社会发展和民众心态。

波兰一开始是共产主义国家，第一个共产主义政府告诉我们不能做爵士乐，但是第二个共产主义政府告诉我们：“好吧，去做爵士乐吧！没问题的！“那是在1958年。所以从1958年开始，爵士在第二、第三和第四个共产主义政府的支持下发展很快。

后来波兰的制度变了。波兰向世界开放就像现在的中国向世界开放，我们从西欧、法国、英国和美国等地吸收了大量的文化，这些新的事物给音乐、艺术乃至整个社会生活都带来了新的面貌。现在波兰是欧盟成员国，波兰音乐人可以在世界各地自由工作交流。因为受到世界各地的影响，所以现在波兰音乐变得前卫自由、疯狂开放。

Observer：The age of Polish jazz musicians is the most popular time of swing.How do you think the difference between the two generations?

Grzegorz Karnas：Maybe three generations now. The Polish jazz started in thirties, then maybe it really started in fifties. My mother was born in 1949. I was born in 1972, so I am the second generation, and my bass player could be my son so he is the third generation. So the differences are huge, we started from swing but end up in contemporary music. It’s all because how the society and mentality developed from the beginning.

We started as a communist country and the first communist government told us we cannot do jazz, but the second communist government told us “OK, go for jazz! No problem!”And it was 1958, so from 1958,jazz was developing under the second,and third,and fourth communist government.

And then we had a change to another system when we took a lot of culture from western Europe, France, England, America. Everything opened up and we are similar to China in this regard now.So many things influence the change.Poland is a member of the European Union now.Polish musicians only take their personal ID can travel freely and work freely.That’s why the music become kind of crazy and open minded because there is so many influences from all other places. Poland opened up for the world like China opened up for the world, now bringing new things to give the new shape to music,to all kinds of art, to the whole life of the society. So we start with swing and end up with contemporary but the change is because of all those things.

观察家：去年您也在中国其他城市参加爵士音乐节，活动中您也与其他中国音乐人合作，那么您是怎样做到融合中波爵士音乐文化的呢？

Grzegorz Karnas：这是最简单的，因为爵士音乐是即兴创作，它能接纳各种思想。即兴创作教会了我一件重要的事情——很快适应不断改变的现实。这意味着当我和一位中国音乐人在一起的时候，我必须听他如何演奏，并融合他的演奏。我不能对他说：“嘿，做我喜欢的音乐。像我这样创作。”这太专制了。而爵士对于各种想法是开放的，所以通过即兴音乐融合音乐文化是非常容易的。

Observer：Last year, you also participated in jazz music festival in other Chinese cities, and you also cooperated with other Chinese musicians. So how do you integrate the culture of jazz music?

Grzegorz Karnas：That's the easiest part because jazz,the improvised music,is open to ideas.It means that improvisation teaches one important thing - teaches you to adapt quickly to ever-changing reality. It means that when I am with a Chinese musician, I have to listen to how he plays and to connect how he plays. I cannot tell him “Hey, play the way I want. Do like I do.” That’s dictatorship. And jazz is open to ideas, so it’s very easy to connect culture through the music of improvision.

“爵士音乐是即兴创作 ，它能接纳各种思想 ”

图片来源：Jakub Krzeszowski

观察家：那么非常“自我”的波兰爵士音乐人在世界舞台上有什么样的地位？

Grzegorz Karnas：非常强势的地位。实际上，波兰有许多国际上著名的爵士乐明星，有很多乐队像我们一样为许多著名唱片公司录制音乐，并在世界各地巡回演出。波兰爵士乐在世界各地都非常受人尊敬。

Observer：What kind of position do the Polish jazz musicians have on the world stage？

Grzegorz Karnas：Very strong position. Actually, Poland has a number of international worldwide jazz stars. There's a number of bands that are touring around the world like us.Polish jazz is very respected around the world.Musicians are recording for many famous recording companies and playing major jazz events all around the world.

观察家：您对波兰爵士乐的发展前景怎么看？

Grzegorz Karnas：我对波兰爵士乐发展抱有很大期待。我们虽然源于美国爵士乐，但后来我们以波兰人的视角来理解，并且加入即兴创作这一概念。一切都来自我们自己的文化、心态和思考方式。这也是目前中国爵士乐所经历的。现在中国爵士音乐人喜欢看欧洲、美国的爵士音乐人怎么做，不过几年后就会有很多优秀独立的中国爵士音乐人。我们今天所做的也是在帮助他们认识自我并创建属于自己的风格。

Observer：What do you think of the development of Polish jazz?

Grzegorz Karnas：I think it’s a very good direction. Because first we took from America but then we understood who we are as Polish people and put into the concept of improvisation.Everything comes through our culture, our mentality, our way of thinking. This is what has happened to Chinese jazz in time.Now you take Europeans, Americans, you see what they do in time.In a few years, there will be a lot of good Chinese independent original jazz musicians. We are here also to help them out of this.